[p4] Serena Dimension and Perforce

[Jeff Jensen]

Thanks Todd!  I appreciated reading your info and experience.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Zarnes, Todd [mailto:Todd_Zarnes at intuit.com] 
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 8:02 AM
To: Jeff Jensen; John-Mason P. Shackelford
Cc: perforce-user at perforce.com
Subject: RE: [p4] Serena Dimension and Perforce

I was a Dimensions PVCS administrator for 4 years and have been a Perforce
administrator for 2 years now.  I value the 'right tool for the right job'
concept and not one SCM tool will fit every situation.  As important of
course is the right resource for the task at hand. 

Dimensions is a high end enterprise solution that delivers Version Control,
Change Management and decent attempts at Release Management right out of the
box.  DEV normally complains about the overhead they encounter to perform
simple tasks, Managers love the features.  From a GUI Workset (P4 Workspace)
you can add a Defect Ticket (Job x 10) and assign it to a targeted release.
Very complex schema, requires something substantial like an Oracle DB to
reside on and as pointed out, a little pricey.  They make attempts to
interface with popular tools and IDE's but provide very little support when
they don't work correctly.
Serena offers a Sales staff and consulting services.

Perforce brags on quick and simple SCM.  You want bells and whistles you
come to this group and you write your own interfaces and triggers.  DEV
loves the simplicity and most managers are happy with the reports and
metrics you generate by attaching a ODBC connection and mining what you
need.  It comes with it's own DB schema that is easy to investigate and best
of all, is very cheap in comparison.  Perforce makes some pretty good
attempts at interfaces and I have never seen a vendor with better support
then Perforce.  Perforce does not have a Sales staff and you likely will not
need consulting.

Dimensions has a feature to promote Objects (Change Tickets, files, Release
Packages, etc.) through a lifecycle that is definable by the admin that I
really liked.  You can say when a 'Defect Ticket' is in the 'QA state' of
the cycle that the revision of the file has to be at a 'Built state' in it's
cycle. That a 'Defect Ticket' needs to be in the 'QA passed state' and the
file revision has to be in a 'Complete state'
before they can be included in Release Package for delivery.
Establishing these lifecycles and placing the rules in effect is not for the
light hearted at any company.  You define the workflow steps for all aspects
of the DEV environment and then enforce it with the tool.  Great for the CMM
minded - standard adhering company that is subject to scrutiny for
perfection like the defense agencies, very powerful.  You can mimic some of
these steps with Branching models in Perforce, modifying Job templates and
setting triggers in place to enforce CM rules that works for most shops with
minimum tinkering. 

The enterprise packages seem to overburden most small to medium shops and
have a high failure rate because of their complexity.  If you buy
Dimensions, you had better hire an experienced Dimensions Admin to even your
odds of successfully implementing an SCM total solution.  Ever read
Pragmatic's book "Ship it!"? Perforce/Subversion is better suited for the
maturity level 1 & 2's out of the box that is capable of more with scripts
and triggers.  Want good version control and someday add change management
at a low dollar cost - Perforce.

Evaluate the needs of the organization long term, setup mock environments of
the tools interested for the approving powers to be and hire experienced
resource(s) to make it successful.  

Todd

-----Original Message-----
From: perforce-user-bounces at perforce.com
[mailto:perforce-user-bounces at perforce.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Jensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 8:49 PM
To: 'John-Mason P. Shackelford'
Cc: perforce-user at perforce.com
Subject: Re: [p4] Serena Dimension and Perforce

Thanks John.

Yes, the foundations of Dimensions was the defense aerospace industry.
Approximately 6 years ago, PVCS purchased it from an English company that
had developed it for defense aircraft software management.  So it has lots
of process and security features for that type of meticulous environment.

I have yet to find someone that has used it and can give opinions and war
stories - it is one of the last couple of SCMs I would like to hear 1st hand
experience on!


-----Original Message-----
From: jpshack at gmail.com [mailto:jpshack at gmail.com] On Behalf Of John-Mason
P. Shackelford
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 2:05 PM
To: Jeff Jensen
Cc: Chuck Emary; perforce-user at perforce.com
Subject: Re: [p4] Serena Dimension and Perforce

Here at PEM we had licenses for Serena Dimensions and even with the licenses
already paid for the cost of implementing it across our organization was
going to be high enough and painful enough without clear benefit that we
eventually elected to dump the tool and to purchase and implement Perforce.
Three years into it we have been very happy with our decision.

We are primarily a web development shop (300+ perforce users) and rapid turn
around it very important to us. Dimensions seemed to us like it might be
more appropriate for a defense contractor. Others on the list may be able to
provide more insight on where Dimension works well.

--
John-Mason Shackelford

Software Developer
Pearson Educational Measurement

2510 North Dodge St.
Iowa City, IA 52245
ph. 319-354-9200x6214
john-mason.shackelford at pearson.com
http://pearsonedmeasurement.com
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